Taking the RISK out of workplace investigations and asset protection

Summary
In Episode 193 of the Moving Beyond Being Good Podcast, Gary Ryan interviews Pat Henderson, CEO of The SureFact Group, discussing the company's evolution from insurance investigations to a multifaceted service provider, including aerial security and talent outsourcing.
Pat shares insights on leadership, the importance of continuous learning, and how outsourcing can benefit businesses while addressing concerns about job displacement.

Takeaways 

• SureFact Group has expanded its services significantly over the years. 
• The company utilizes drones for safer and more efficient security operations. 
• Outsourcing talent can help businesses scale without increasing local staffing costs. 
• Pat emphasizes the importance of character and culture in hiring. 
• Leadership involves leading by example and empowering team members. 
• Continuous learning is essential for personal and professional growth. 
• Outsourcing does not necessarily take jobs away from locals; it can create more opportunities. 
• Pat's leadership style is influenced by his background in elite sports. 
• Investing in employee development leads to significant internal promotions. 
• The SureFact Group is committed to solving unique problems for clients. 

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Transcript

Gary Ryan (00:00.236)
The SureFact Group has grown and grown and grown. If you'd like to learn how SureFact has grown from starting with doing investigations for insurance companies to now having an aerial unit that looks after high asset value risk protection, as well as how they've now got SureStaff Global where they're providing staff out of the Philippines for people all throughout Australasia and beyond, and much more, then join me with my next guest.

Pat Henderson, the CEO of the SureFact Group. Let's go. Hi folks. Welcome to the Moving Beyond Being Good podcast by Gary Ryan from Organisations That Matter. In this podcast, Gary shares everything about servant leadership, service leadership, authentic leadership, how to create high performance cultures, service excellence, and life balance. Here's your host, Gary Ryan. Thank you Sienna for your lovely introduction. Folks, we've got...

Pat Henderson here from the SureFact Group. He's the CEO and managing director. Pat, how you doing? Fantastic, thanks. Gary, I really appreciate the introduction and looking forward to having a really great, insightful discussion with you today. I'm looking forward to it as well. And we've known each other since some of our kids were at primary school together many, many years ago. They're all getting pretty big now.

My young fella's certainly dwarfing me now and making me feel a bit old And and folks if you if you actually saw Pat and I standing together you would know it's quite an effort to dwarf Pat He's a fair bit bigger than So it's pretty cool. So with the SureFact  Group tell it just let everyone know What does the Sure Fact Group do because we've been growing a little bit lately?

Yeah, absolutely. So the SureFact  Group is a professional services Group of companies and some of our brands within the Group is the Surefact Australia. Now Surefact Australia is a investigations company. That's our core pillar of service in that division. So we do all sorts of investigations from personal injury, insurance related personal injury. That's what we specialize in.

Gary Ryan (02:23.074)
We do a lot of HR misconduct workplace investigations. We do a lot of integrity type investigations for insurers, mystery shopper programs and things of that nature. So we've got a significant client base in that particular area. And we also do a lot of covert type scenarios. So surveillance, as I touched on before, mystery shopping programs.

you know, organized, you know, thefts and things of that nature. So yeah, we do a lot in that space. We also have a security risk consultancy arm in that business. So we go out and we do security risk assessments or gap analysis, bringing organizations from where they are with this current security posture up to what best practice would be to secure their assets. So could be electronic security infrastructure.

It could be just processes and standing operating procedures. We also do a lot of manpower security, but in the logistics and warehousing distribution centers. So we organize the security of assets in that particular environment. And, you know, that probably encompasses everything in SureFact Australia. We've got another brand called SureFact Aerial, which is a drone business.

And we got into that purely as a result of the security activities we did. So, you know, instead of, guess, getting someone to patrol a site mobile, it's actually a lot safer to do by the air. So you can actually go and do a big site, do a patrol with a drone. It's got thermal cameras so you can see, you know, from, you know, in a night environment, you can see.

in I think that's around so it's much safer. So then we evolved that into doing like asset inspection. We do a lot in the distribution electrical space. So distribution power and transmission power. So instead of getting someone to climb an asset, we would actually send a drone up and get imagery of the asset. And in some occasions, what we can do is we can actually take a 3D model of that.

Gary Ryan (04:45.166)
particular assets so the engineers can actually do the inspection and make SureFact everything's working OK to keep everyone on the network. We also have a business called Surefact Protect which goes into a bit of that security aspect where we provide like the asset protection. We do a lot of CPP work so close personal protection for high networth individuals which is fantastic.

And then we've got some businesses. We've got SureFact New Zealand. So we've actually expanded in New Zealand where we've got an operation for one of our existing clients. So we do a mystery shopper program and various types of investigations with a couple of our key clients in New Zealand. And we've also got a regional head office in Southeast Asia. So we've got a operation based in Cebu, the Philippines.

and that provides security and investigation services in that region. I should also say we're actually fully national. we've got, you know, we're head office in Melbourne in Moorabbin. We also have an office in Parramatta in New South Wales. And so we are fully operational. We do have operations in other countries, as I mentioned. And also we've got another business which we call SureFact.

a source are you call SureStaff Global, which what that is, it's providing outsourced talent to businesses that are trying to scale. So we have, you know, over 500 candidates on our book based in the Philippines and what they do. So you may want a social media marketing manager. You can come through us. We do the onboarding. We match the talent with the culture of the organisation and we do the

placement and we sort of coordinate and facilitate introductions to top tier talent in the Philippines. could be, as I said, social media marketing, could be accountants, bookkeepers, virtual assistants, architects, nurses, know, it's just Pandora's box really. It's there's so much talented staff over there. So, you know, what we're finding is that there is a

Gary Ryan (07:07.977)
push towards getting talent over there to help. A lot of businesses like I had, you sort of go through the process and you hit a wall and it's about how do I scale? And this is a good tool to actually help and assist businesses to scale their operations. Look, it's the biggest challenge that so many companies are facing is how do I scale? especially when I've not quite got the revenue there yet and how do I do that and still be able to manage my staff expenses?

And one of the beauties of having Shul staff global is that you've got access to a highly qualified, highly talented, in this case, Filipino staff who are able to slot in, able to obviously communicate in English as well, and be able to help businesses here in Australia scale. it's been interesting because there are a number of businesses in this space that are opening up. some folk have said to me,

Well, that's taking jobs off Australians. Yes. Right. And I get it. I get that perspective. I'd be interested in your response to that question about, that's taken Aussie jobs. So, you know, that's bad for us. So how do you explain the reality of actually what's happening and how, in , the impact is the opposite? Absolutely. So from my own experiences, we had a real challenge.

So we would in our parts of our business, whether it's SureFact Aerial or Sure Protect, we found it difficult to actually hire recruit staff. So when I always recruit people, I look at character and how they fit and culture. And if they're going to fit into the environment, we can teach them the skills and what's required to perform that role. What we were finding is we would go out and recruit and hire.

And then what would happen is that would have them for three or four months. And it's not just a financial investment, it's a time investment. So we invest time bringing them up, giving them the skills to succeed in the role. And then all of a sudden, you know, they might get an opportunity elsewhere for, you know, two or $3,000 more. And instead of having a discussion with us, they would just go and leave. So we had a lot of...

Gary Ryan (09:31.725)
sort of turnover. And so we're like, okay, how can we combat this because it was an issue, because all we were doing was spinning our wheels. And it was taking us away from what we had to do was drive the business and drive the growth. So we looked at how to do that. And it was actually that going offshore to the Philippines. We started with two people in our SureFact Aerial business and now a security business.

And we've probably got about 10 or so staff in there that do the back office support of coordination, scheduling jobs, you know, with clients within the aerial business, looking at the compliance for aerial and things of that nature where, you know, they just really excel in that environment. probably like, you know, they're grateful. They are very well educated.

They speak fantastic English and it actually just combated that. And then we had a look and it's like, okay, this is something we can commercialize because, you know, a lot of the roles people in Australia particularly aren't interested in doing, you know, that's the reality is that they don't want to come in as an admin or they don't want to come in and do something like that. there is.

a gap in the market where those roles are difficult to fill. So if we can get a really skilled candidate at a fraction of the cost, it's a win-win because as a business owner, you care about your bottom line and you care about being profitable. And in our business, for example, we could have five outsourced staff for the cost of one in Australia. So it makes sense. particularly,

in our security business where it's a 24 seven operation, we've got staff that's maintaining it 24 seven. So I can cause there's been an alarm or something of that nature. That's 24 seven operation. Yeah. having that staff capability, it costs that whole timeframe is so powerful for you. and equally what,

Gary Ryan (11:48.168)
to can again that that argument that people say that it's taken Australian jobs, it's actually helping SureFact grow, like it does any other company. And with you growing, you're staying in business, you're growing, that means you're interacting with other businesses in Australia, and as we've seen in New Zealand and globally, as well for you. But that means those businesses get to stay in business, they get to keep staff like, there's actually a massive upside to Australian businesses, again, as you're highlighted.

Pat, for jobs that people don't really want to do and or there tends to be high turnover in, which creates a lot of its own headaches, then why not go and look at an option like SureStaff where folk can access staff. Now, are you, is it just full-time staff you're doing that you're sourcing for people or is it also? Yeah, it's a mix.

You know, it could be client that needs five hours a week of social media assistance. So we provide that. So it's it's on whatever you require. So it could be a couple of hours a week. It could be 40 hours a week. It could be five staff, 40 hours a week. It could be a 24 seven operation because look at particularly in Australia, a lot of the clients that we would sort of target our security companies. Because if you look at a security company, right?

cost for security in when like inflation and you've got the economic pressures in an organisation, the first thing that's cut is the security budget, but it's probably the most important thing. securing assets, you know, reducing your shrinkage and things of that nature. So to be competitive in that landscape, right? You need like your cost of goods needs to be right on point. You've got to get your pricing model 100 % correct. So if you've got your

support staff that your, you know, there's that cost reduction, you actually can be more competitive in your price and remain the same, but your profit margin on that is a lot greater. So, you know, it does help it keeps people in business, helps it's, it creates, I guess, you know, competitive pricing doesn't blow pricing out of the water.

Gary Ryan (14:05.728)
you know, like for us in our security business, you know, we can compete because we can be really sharp with our pricing because we know. So, yeah, has that flow on effect that no one thinks about. with some of the language just for the uneducated that might be tuning into us here. So when you talk about assets, for example, and you were talking about electricity supply, et cetera. So an asset, my understanding would be literally the wires themselves.

and the pylon structures that the wires hang off that everyone's seen when they're driving along a country road and that's where that's where SureFact Aerial's are able to get in there it's much safer because you can be on a road somewhere and some open space send up send up the drone and off you go and do the assessments of an asset CPP close personal protection some people would know that as a bodyguard yeah bodyguard absolutely that's right and

Yeah, just to clarify some of those phrases for folks so that they understand what we're talking about. Now, one of the questions I always like to ask people because you've been in business for how long now? Because it's quite a while. Yeah, 12 years. We started with SureFact Australia 12 years ago. Yeah. So the name SureFact, I always like to know, why did you call it SureFact? And it's like a fingerprint.

That your logo. Yeah, it is. So, so my background, I come from a risk background. So people risk health and safety. and, and what I was looking for, I worked within the insurance and risk management industry, and I sort of wanted to a career break and I wanted to sort of diversify and get out of what I was pigeonholed in that particular area. And I was looking at my

skill set and what it could do. And I saw an opportunity in the investigations industry for investigations company that really understands what's required of insurance and risk rather than, you know, there was a limited expertise in that particular area. So what I tried to really do was focus on, I think, you your name is really critical to your success. If know, people need to know

Gary Ryan (16:31.658)
what you do in order to utilize your services. So what I wanted to do was create surety. So if you come with us, you're going to get surety and , like that's what we do. We find facts. So, you know, we're independent  finders. you know, a large component of some of our work we do is factual investigations. So we go out as an independent person to get the

factual information on a particular issue scenario and then come back and compile a report with witness statements and accounts of what's occurred in a factual basis and provide it to the insurance company, the law firm, or whoever it may be for them to make a decision. So that's how we sort of brought that together. So we're providing surety and we're providing factual information. So that's where the name SureFact was born.

And one of the reasons why the insurance companies come and engage you to do this work for you for them, because just again, for folks to understand is that if from an insurance company point of view, if someone's putting in false claims and committing fraud effectively, they need to have the evidence to prove that that is actually the case that this person actually doesn't have this major back injury, because we're watching them load 20 kilogram bags onto the back of a Ute.

five days a week and we've got the evidence to highlight that that's actually what's going on. there's that side of the summer for that part of your business. That's a big part of what you do, which is why the surety and the facts matter. Exactly, exactly. And just like, you know, particularly in Victoria, there was a legislation changed just recently. So mental health claims is a significant issue. I guess.

across all jurisdictions in the workers compensation arena. So particularly in Victoria, that they actually changed the eligibility to get compensation for a mental health injury or stress claim or whatever the case may be. So what they say now, was the act was changed to say that if you're overworked,

Gary Ryan (18:54.954)
and you've got stress because you're overworked, it's no longer compensable. So they're saying, yes, you might have a stress condition and you might have the symptoms and you might be diagnosed with a mental health injury. But however, the legislation changes that because you're overworked, doesn't mean it's compensable anymore. So there are other sort of unique challenges to identify is.

that, okay, we've got to ascertain what was the causation of that particular mental injury. Was it overworked or was it because they're bullied in the workplace or something else? And if they bullied and the information, well, yes, that could be considered compensable. But under a particular scenario, it may not be so. So, know, a lot of mental health claims have to be investigated from a factual standpoint to determine whether or not

they have a compensable injury or not. And I would assume because it is very topical Pat and of course we obviously feel for folk that are having mental health challenges and really there's not a person on earth that you know doesn't get to you know our ages that's for SureFact and not have had some sort of mental health challenges at some point in their journey but equally I imagine that some folks mental health challenges aren't

they may be caused outside of the workplace, but the workplace is the place where they make the claim to try and get compensation. Yeah. Yeah. So in that sort of scenario, what they're looking at is that they would then go so they would refer to someone like ourselves to undertake a factual investigation and get all the information and we would compile a report that would go to the insurance company.

but the insurance company would also request a report from the treater of the injured person. So it might be their GP or a psychologist, and they would get information about what the diagnosis is, what the treatment is, what medication they're having. But then also they would then send it to an independent medical. So it'd be like if it's a stress claim, it be a psychiatrist. And then they would actually assess

Gary Ryan (21:16.128)
the injured worker and then they would provide a medical diagnosis or a medical report and it might say, yes, there are alternative factors causing the stress. The workplace is the secondary issue, but it's not compensable because it's not a work-related injury. then that would really, the determination of liability comes down to what the independent doctor would say.

But the independent doctor would review our report, the treater's report and the physical assessment and then make a decision, not make a decision, provide their diagnosis and recommendations. This might be an impossible question, so please feel free to say it's an impossible question to answer, Gary. Is it like a normal time frame that this whole process, like if someone submitted a claim, like how long would they

Could they on average, and I appreciate that there was, there's always going to be variations, but how long would they anticipate a process like that would take, Pat? Yeah, absolutely. So in Victoria, it's mandated and legislated by the government. So in Victoria, you've got 28 days. The insurance company has 28 days to make a decision. that's, the time clock starts straight away. So in that 28 days in Victoria,

they have to refer the matter onto someone like myself. They have to request the treaters report from the GP or treater. They have to get an independent doctor. And can you imagine like the schemes under so much pressure because independent doctors, they aren't, there isn't a huge, like the pool of independent doctors is shrinking all the time. So it's so difficult.

I've got a knee injury and I've got to go see a specialist. It might take me six weeks to get into it, to see my specialist. They've got to get them in within three weeks. So it's huge burden on the scheme. And yeah, so there is a really reduced timeframe to do that. That's just Victoria. Now, if we look at New South Wales, for example, they've got provisional liability so they can accept the claim for a period of 12 weeks whilst they

Gary Ryan (23:41.472)
get the information to make a decision, yes or no. So potentially it could get accepted provisionally in New South Wales and then they get the evidence and then it's rejected or it could go on to be continued to be accepted. it's sort of what the problem is in particularly in Australia, there's no national harmonisation. So each state runs the scheme. in Victoria, you've got WorkSafe that run the scheme.

In New South Wales, you've got Sierra and ICARE that run the scheme. Then Queensland, you've got QComp. So that's like a state-based organisation. Then you've got risk states. So it's the insurers. So like in Tasmania, ACT, WA, NT, like the insurer underwrites the risk. So there is competitiveness. So if I go to QBE and that's my business and then...

I can go my broker will go get a quote from Allianz and my premium will be cheaper. Whereas in Vic and New South Wales, your premium doesn't change depending on which agent you go to. that's for what we would call work cover in those states. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Now I know and I want to make sure we tap into this topic because I know you're passionate about it. One of your passions is around leadership.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And what would be some of the ones or three of the key drivers for you from a leadership perspective that you believe in? So for me, I grew up sort of playing elite sport, so I wasn't and I'm not saying to admit academically at school, I wasn't the best. I was a bit of a scallywag and I didn't concentrate and I thought I was going to.

play 300 games of AFL and education wasn't important. And then, you know, things don't go to plan. But a lot of my leadership experience comes from playing in elite sporting teams. So playing football and it's, know, you know, everyone's got to really be on the same page. There's no weak links. Everyone's got to buy into the direction.

Gary Ryan (25:55.006)
and be engaged and be moving as one. So for me, I always love to lead by example, so much so that I'm always on the tools. So I'm always sort of, okay, yeah, we haven't got someone to do this. Okay, I'll do it. I'm probably taking on too much rather than sort of.

managing the direction and strategy and things like that. I involve myself too much in the day-to-day operation, but that's also showing my team that, listen, I'll still get out there. I'll roll the sleeves up. I'll do what's required. And particularly, some of the security stuff we do, could be a high or a volatile environment or it could be a higher level of risk associated with it. I will never send.

one of my team to do it, I always will go out and do it. So they can see that, hey, I'm not just gonna sit in my ivory tower and throw out, yeah, you need to do this, I'll be out with you doing it. leadership is really, really important. I'd never expect someone to do something I wouldn't do. I think it's really important to give everyone the ability to walk their own path and make their own mistakes. So for example,

you know, if someone's got, I like my leadership team to have the ability and comfort that they can make decisions. So they don't have to always come to me, but they're empowered to make the decisions because that's important. And they know what our cultural environment is. They know how we base our decisions and all of that nature.

Like it's about empowerment. know, I've got like one of my proudest moments in the business is not necessarily some of the big and exciting projects we've done. It's about this gentleman that came into the business and he also come from a professional sporting background. And he started off in our administration team. And I just saw something in him.

Gary Ryan (28:13.096)
And same sort of thing, didn't have strong education background and things of that nature. And what proudest moment would be is like mentoring and seeing him evolve as a person and as an employee from admin team to our Group manager of operations and partnerships in four years. Like it's been a fantastic transition. You know, that excites me. I've got another.

exceptional staff member who same thing she started off eight years ago in our admin team. You know, she come from the Philippines. She had a lot of challenges trying to get a permanent visa. She was on student visa doing certain courses, then the goalpost shifted and then she had to go and do another course. SureFact sponsored her, but for eight years starting off.

in our admin team to being our surveillance manager, to being now our head of business optimization and process and governance. Like she's, yeah, she's she's, we are like, you know, the DNA of SureFact, our longest employee, and just, you know, absolutely killing it. And then you've got like our general manager of special projects, who's come from a law enforcement background who was

in law enforcement for 25 plus years coming from that public service and coming into the private sector and just absolutely killing it, taking our special projects division from here to here. So, the things I look at, the wins that we've picked up this project, that's watching our people succeed in the business.

somewhat of the support in that and and having said that too I've lost good people because we've we've you know supported them and then got them to a certain level and they get head hunted out of the organisation and it's great yeah it's a loss to me but it's it's great you know for them personally so yeah yeah it's 100 % that I mean and you know for for you to emphasize

Gary Ryan (30:27.958)
you know, being on the same page, leading by example, people being able to be clear about the decisions they can make. And as a result of that, then mistakes can be made and we can learn as an individual, as a Group along the way. And then the mentoring, development and growth of people, Pat, is really, really significant. What are going to be, if someone, because we've covered quite a lot of ground, what would be some of the best ways or the best way for folk to reach out to you to make some contact if there's anything that you've touched upon that could be from?

SureFact , Aerial, it could be from SureFact , Australia could be SureFact , New Zealand with the, could be someone going, I need some people to do some mystery shopping for us in New Zealand. Cause one based in Wellington or whatever the case might be or through to a Sure Staff Global. What's going to be the best place to reach out to you, Pat? Well, we just actually, we've never marketed to be honest. It's all been word of mouth, but just this year we've invested in a fantastic.

website. So we've got the SureFact Group landing page, which you go on to that which would be www.surefactgroup.com and what you can do is then you can select the business, so it'll be SureFact Australia, you click on that. The SureFact Australia website is www.surefactaustralia.com

and the aerial and some of the other ones are just currently under construction because we're just rolling them out for the systematically at the moment. But feel free to go onto our website. Alternatively, can email me direct, which is phenderson @ surefact.com.au. And yeah, just feel free to ask me anything. As I said, I'm always happy to help. I look at myself, you know, broadly as...

you know, our business is quite unique and we're really, really good at solving people's problems outside the box thinking. So if you've got like a unique problem or an issue that you need assistance and you don't know where to go, please feel free to reach out because we're happy to assist. Yeah. And another place people can find is LinkedIn. Cause I know you're very active there as well. So there's plenty of options, but probably the shining light is the SureFact  Group.com folks. That is the place where all things SureFact can be accessible.

Gary Ryan (32:48.548)
Pat, there is a last question. Yeah. And, and, cause it is called the moving beyond being good podcast. what does the phrase moving beyond being good mean to you? for me, it's about not being complacent. Like the moment you stop learning, you stop, you know, everything stops. So, you know, you never stop learning at all. So for me,

Like I've got a really entrepreneurial mindset. Like I'm not satisfied. Like, you know, I'm not satisfied. Okay. The Group, you know, revenue is X. I'm not satisfied that I want to 10 X everything. So I'm always moving forward. I will take risks. So for me, I'm always want to move forward. and I'm very competitive coming from my sporting background. So I'm not happy at just, you know, winning by a goal. want to excel.

I take that mindset in everything I do. So I'm tenacious, I'm demanding on my goals, I'm demanding on myself. And yeah, like I reflect on myself a lot about how, and it's not about making mistakes, it's a learning moment. Okay, what did I learn in that moment? How can I be better? What can I do different? So for me,

you know, I want to be the best version of myself I can be for my staff. Like we've got, you know, 25 employees. So, you know, I've got to make decisions that affect 25 people. I've got to, you know, yeah, that's pressure. So, so, for me, it's never about being complacent. No. And what a great answer. And you know, what I also love about that answer to the question is you, you did say there in the chat that

You know, school wasn't your thing. I wasn't great academically at school. And yet your answer about what moving beyond being good was fundamentally all about learning and continuous learning. And so for folk out there that might have had some challenges with the education system and it might not have worked for you time and a time again, and Pat's another example of this with the entrepreneurs in the world are people that maybe school actually wasn't that fantastic for, but they're unbelievable learners at the same time.

Gary Ryan (35:09.77)
And that when you found your, your, your space with the opportunity to start SureFact 12 years ago, you've just continued to shine. You've, as you said, also a pattern we see with successful people is they're never satisfied. Like they don't just, but you can't live on yesterday's success. Cause it's already yesterday. Right. It's like we, know, and, and it's not just wanting things more, more things for more things sake. It's about.

you're actually having an impact. Like you said, you've got 25 staff. Like they're relying on you for keeping them employed, gainfully employed. They're relying on you to drive the growth of the organisation, which is why there's so many variations of what SureFact does. It's still within the fundamentally the same box, of course, but you your willingness to, it's interesting, you manage risk, but you're prepared to take risks to grow. Absolutely. That's exactly right.

I love that connection. So Pat, I want to thank you for coming along and joining us on the Moving Beyond Being Good Podcast. Thank you, Gary. I really appreciate it. And yeah, was a fantastic opportunity. And I certainly enjoy watching your podcasts and what you do. And you're doing an exceptional job out there. And so keep it going. Thank you very much for that. And folks, so you'll have all the links for Pat and the SureFact Group in

links below so make sure you go check them out definitely reach out to Pat. We do appreciate you for joining us here in the Moving Beyond Being Good Podcast and I look forward to you joining us next time. Excellent, thank you Gary.